[Scorpio]

Hey all,
Tokyopop just posted a really interesting column on manga collaboration: http://www.tokyopop.com/393.html. Columnist Stephanie Folse brings up many good (if not contentious) points about artists working with writers. We've had some discussion about this before and it'd be interesting to hear people's opinions or experiences on collab work. Here are some of my personal thoughts.

1) I don't care how many stones get thrown at me but I totally agree with Stephanie that drawing takes much longer than writing . Many writers feel they deserve more money for being the 'intellectual' input but that doesn't change the fact that art takes up a huge amount of time and artists need to be compensated for that time in order to live!

2) I wholly respect writing as a demanding and difficult craft. I love reading and utterly idolise my favourite authors for being able to create stories the they do. However when writers want to enter the field of scripting, then they need to give their collaborators (ie artists/animators) equal respect for being the vital element in bringing their ideas to life. If a writer is wholly consumed with their own ego, then they should stick to doing novels .

3) It is a lot harder for a writer to become established in the manga industry than an artist. If someone asked you to list a few well-known UK artists then names would jump to your mind immediately whereas most people would draw a blank with writers (I know one...Alex DeCampi ). People have requested a 'script' RSOM contest just for writers...does this seem like an innovative or superfluous idea?

[Polaris]

I agree with you on this, and the informative column. I enjoy both writing and drawing and although I'm not a master of either I know the ups and downs of both.

I think it's true that many writers just don't understand what collab is about, and even try to do it without having a script.

It only takes a few of minutes to type or write out a description of something, but it could take hours to draw the same thing is the same detail as with words. Of course, with both you have to go back, correct mistakes and improve, but that's still the basis of it. It also takes a lot longer to become an artist than a writer, as we know our language from birth, even if some people speak it better than others, but although people draw as children art isn't as an important part of life as language. It's easier to survive without art than without language.

[Palmer-san]

how weird, i was thinking of raising a similar issue yesterday. I was musing over the use of the term 'comic artist', to describe even those who write their own stuff.
i agree with the points above, language is integral to our lives, but i believe art should be too. i think people should be encouraged to draw as regularly as we are encouraged to write, visual expression is such an important life skill! capturing human movement and expression, with a series of still images, yet still expressing those little quirks that make us all unique, is a damn hard thing to accomplish.
i do really appreciate the skill of writing, as has been said, i am often in awe of the depth people can create a character out of nothing. a writing based RSOM would be a good addition, and perhaps sweatdrop could focus an area of the forum on improving our writing, ('writing discussion' perhaps)

i really like the concept of collaborations, and it would be lovely to see some great team ups happen through the forums, maybe if there was a writing section, it would make writers feel welcome enough to post up their work more freely, as a kind of acknowledgement of the importance of writing in a manga. most of the collab offers i've seen go up fall down because of a lack of examples of work, whereas almost every artist here has a thread of art somewhere in the artwork discussion section.

sorry for waywardly swinging on and around topic, i do love to ramble, hehe, enough for now (rsom deadline looming...)

[anna louise]

Originally Posted by Scorpio

People have requested a 'script' RSOM contest just for writers...does this seem like an innovative or superfluous idea?

But then what would be the point in that? At the end of the day manga is a visual medium, so if you were just to submit a script it could be a script for anything.

I completely agree with you that writing is a very difficult, and I would go farther to say that writing a well constructed novel is much harder than creating a comic no matter how time consuming it is. But for the most part manga focuses very heavily on the art work (much more so than many of the big American comic book publishers where there is alot of dialogue)

I think though it is good to work with a writer, you can always generate more ideas with two people and it means you can send more time doing the thing you love - drawing!

[Cin]

I think I'm going to have to join the corner than gets bludgeoned to death by rocks.

I respect writers and it's truly a great story, character and setting that make or break a manga... but I have to admire artists more just for the sheer amount of extra work needed. A simple suggestion like 'strikes the rock and breaks it half' won't take more than 5 secs for someone to think of, but to display that effect can take serveral hours of work on the artists part.

I think in effect though it's a little more complex than just write and draw. In a story you have to think of character designs, character costumes, character history, settings, locations, sernarios, directions of panels, layout of pages etc. Any of these jobs can be taken on by artist, writer or both. You can have a writer taking on all these roles and the artist just drawing what they are told in which case the writer probably wouldn't get the credit they deserve.

There are a few 'published' writers I know who have worked on major projects and there are artists with stunning work getting commission after commission... but I think at the end of the day the people I respect the most are the ones who try. Your artwork might not be world class, your writing and story might be utter rubbish, but if you sit down for two weeks, work your hardest and produce something... anything, then that's someone I can admire. At the end of it you might not have the greatest manga in the world... but you'll have your manga and it's one of the best feelings you can get.

[Palmer-san]

well said cin, my feelings too!
i want to see people try, i think everyone has the creative spark in them somewhere, it justs needs a little nurturing, not ego stroking :cough, deviantart: but honest to goodness creative support, crit when necessary, and praise when deserved.
this is why you see so much wonderful stuff coming out of artist led places like this, sure the stories may not have mass appeal, the art might be lacking in places, writing ropey, but by god there's heart in there, and blood, sweat and tears.
i feel a writing rsom would be worhthwile because they admit that most of their entries are by artists first, writers second. a comp dedicated to writing first might shake things up a bit, and give writing a platform to stand alone a little.

oh god i've turned my post into a pro sweatdrop, pro creativity rant again, anyone would think i like it here

[LukePierce]

As someone who's doing both (well, getting more into the art-side, somehow... lol), I honestly think both trades are roughly about equal in terms of work getting done.
Because the art is generally more visual, you can often find that the writer can get completely ignored or overlooked completely. If the visuals are nice enough, then the reader gets pulled in and here one of two things occur:

1) Good writing: Reader sits down, thinks what a wonderful story it was and goes back to look at the work all over again. Any nuances within the "script" are generally ignored.

2) Bad Writing: Really noticeable. Generally noticed as something not quite "right" before the dialogue becomes more scrutinised. Art is ignored as every word is pulled apart. Then the work is looked through again, and the art becomes used as a "reference" for us lesser mortals.

So, what happens if the art is not far up to scratch?

1) Good writing: The story is clear and the raving scribbles make sense. However, the dialogue is more carefully looked at and the story comes across as good. The art might generally get rescued as "Indie-style" if the story is that good. Which can happen all too often.

2) Bad writing: Gets filed in the folder named "Bin".


So, the difference? For good writing to be noticed, the art generally has to suck, but if it shines then it doesn't get noticed by many, except for other writers who can lament at their writers' "frustration" at not perhaps being as critically acclaimed as the artist.
Which sucks, but that's the way of the world.

On the more professional level, that's why editors are so great! They recognise the work put in by both parties and that's really something which should be celebrated more.

*I just know I'm gonna get my ass chewed over this*

[Kriffix]

Originally Posted by Cin

I think I'm going to have to join the corner than gets bludgeoned to death by rocks.
I respect writers and it's truly a great story, character and setting that make or break a manga... but I have to admire artists more just for the sheer amount of extra work needed.

que the rocks, im with cin and luke.

[ebichu64]

Hi.
Steaming gently as the forum just lost my first reply. I'll try and remember what I wrote...

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Hey all,
1) I don't care how many stones get thrown at me but I totally agree with Stephanie that drawing takes much longer than writing . Many writers feel they deserve more money for being the 'intellectual' input but that doesn't change the fact that art takes up a huge amount of time and artists need to be compensated for that time in order to live!

(kicks rock under rug ) I more or less agree with you but from a slightly different perspective. It's much easier to get away with bad writing than it is with bad art. I can't remember which manga it was, but I remember Subi saying the story sucked, but he was still buying it because he liked the artwork so much. On the other hand, Neuromancer done with stick figures ain't gonna sell. There's stuff I've done where I look back a year or two later and think "rubbish!", in much the same way as some artists want to redraw their work. It's all a matter of taking pride in what you do. I'm a perfectionist, and I'll go over a story again and again until I'm sure I've filled in all the "plotholes", and anything that can stay a mystery still fits in with the scenario. So unless I have been given a deadline, I don't know, maybe I do take as long to write as someone else takes to draw.

2) I wholly respect writing as a demanding and difficult craft. I love reading and utterly idolise my favourite authors for being able to create stories the they do. However when writers want to enter the field of scripting, then they need to give their collaborators (ie artists/animators) equal respect for being the vital element in bringing their ideas to life. If a writer is wholly consumed with their own ego, then they should stick to doing novels .

Agree 100%. It's called Teamwork. Even if I have a very specific idea of how something should look in my own mind, once I hand it over I hand it all over. Any notes or suggestions I make are just for help and totally up to the artist to use or throw away. I'm there if I'm needed, but I'm not going to tell anyone how they should draw and so I try and back off.

I've found out doing Kuri with Subi that how an artist interprets my story is one of the most interesting parts of a project, and that why I've wanted to team up with other artists. The first story I collaborated on was purely writing and one of the most satisfying things about it was people saying they couldn't tell where the joins were. Sweet!

Ah, yes, The Novel! It's a time thing. I have a half completed novel I started, I suppose, when I was eleven. It's been through several rewrites, the magic swords and stuff have been junked, but I haven't done anything since 1999, coincidentally, when I started going to anime cons instead of SF and Fantasy cons. The way things stand now, I still get to tell stories in a timeframe that I can manage - Today's epic was "Writing my Annual Appraisal!"

Maybe I'll take up the novel again after I retire from full time work. Tolkien took 12 years to write Lord of the Rings, let's see if I can't break his record!

3) People have requested a 'script' RSOM contest just for writers...does this seem like an innovative or superfluous idea?

'Fraid I don't have an answer to that... not sure if I'd even be tempted to enter... still thinking.... Thing is, there are plenty of other writing competitions going on all the time and I never feel any great incentive to enter any of them.

[LukePierce]

I don't think that a script RSOM would be a very good idea, who in their right mind would want to read something that's basically:

Page 1

Panel 1
Swing the sword

Voice: yaargh!

I mean, seriously people. Like, get with the program here?


What would work better, and seeing as they accept solitions on this anyway, is having a RSOM short stories competition. Fifteen/Twenty pages on any subject you like (with the obvious exceptions) and I think that it will have a pretty high entry volume to justify it. This might mean that you'll end up getting a lot of self-indulgent tripe, but you get that with any competition really...

Or you could always enter the quarterly L. Ron Hubbard Science Fiction writer competition. I'll have to find the link on that, but the standard from what I've seen is extremely, extremely high.
(Think H.G. Wells and Jules Verne with a modern twist and you're not far off at how good you have to be. Oh, and 10,000 words to write it in as well)

So, yeah, there alternatives to go through, but there aren't that many who accept a more manga/anime influenced style of writing. [plug]Contagion: War Stories! If you like Buffy, then you'll like a lot of the stories in here. Mine sucks, but there you go... [/end plug] that's one route to go down by writing small press and getting your work out that way. You'll find that there's actually more work in the RPG side of things than anywhere else, simply because the games just keep on expanding and get updated regularly.


Okay, completely deviated there....

- Luke

[studioplugnplay]

On the more professional level, that's why editors are so great! They recognise the work put in by both parties and that's really something which should be celebrated more.

Depends on the editor. Try being a writer who sells something and then has it re-written by an unethical editor. That can suck massively.



I don't see the debate here. What Tentopet’s basically saying is, in the end, it's all about the collab. If you still feel the need to differentiate yourself as an artist from a writer, than you're simply not the sort of artist that's meant to draw from another writer’s work. There are true 'draftsmen' out there, people who enjoy bringing to life what written for them; there are artists out there who just cannot draw anything unless they’re the ones writing it.

I just personally think this quasi-one-upmanship about who does the most work, and who gets more recognition, is pointless. Just do what you do and do it best.

-Tina

[Cin]

There are true 'draftsmen' out there, people who enjoy bringing to life what written for them; there are artists out there who just cannot draw anything unless they’re the ones writing it.

There are also true 'draftsmen' out there who enjoy having enough money to eat on a daily basis. Most artists are willing to work and draw anything you want without question so long as you pay them. I think you'll find most of the people you will ever work with will fall into this section.

If there are artists out there who just cannot draw anything unless they’re the ones writing it, well... they're screwed for commissions aren’t they?

[studioplugnplay]

I think you'll find most of the people you have/will ever work will fall into this section.

Do you mean me personally, or those who've been assigned my material by a publisher? I've sold 30-40 page shorts to publishers without ever meeting the artists assigned to them; I cannot speak for them or their motivation in terms of my material, so I won’t. On that same note, since you did say the word 'You', I can confess I've never personally paid an artist to produce anything I've written; of my current graphic novel length works, my friends [Caroline Monaco, Katarzyna Kara] are my partners, not just 'my artists'. In terms of serial work, my projects with Zel Harris and Laura Carboni, are also affairs of the heart, as we as individuals came together to create our story for our respected publishers. We don't think twice about who gets billing or who does more work than whom. I write the script, I letter, I help screentone. I guess I’m jaded for thinking more of what fans think of our finished project, than I do about how much more stock and time I put into it that they do or don't.

And by draftsmen I mean, those who truly enjoy comiking from script, for some it truly is a state of mind, and not just another way to feed the family.

If there are artists out there who just cannot draw anything unless they’re the ones writing it, well... they're screwed for commissions aren’t they?

And this is just grousing on semantics now. You know very well I mean mangaka who can only draw their own stories...who the hell actually makes a career drawing someone's written 'commissions' art piece requests? Is that even a job? Drawing someone's 'commission piece' which is what, 'I want FMA's Ed in a pink tutu'. Of course I wasn’t referring to artists who don’t draw sequentially, why would I? I know for a fact that Rivkah Greulich [TPop] considers herself a storyteller-style mangaka, who has no desire to work with a writer or from another writer's script. I certainly don't think any less of her for it, but I know she certainly doesn’t think any less of me; and that's my point.

-Tina

[Siegen]

Maybe it is just part of the artistic nature of things, and how in manga, comic or animation. It seems that the writer and artist in people butt heads. There are artist out there that move me by just seeing there art, and those that push me to strive harder in my writing.

Maybe it is just me since I see my self as a plot writer and story teller, rather then a writer. I admit my art is not good enough to even consider it a manga form style, but I don't understand why is it so taboo for a artist to read something and draw based on it. I know it by nature they need to be artistic and flowing, but it seems to be a common opinion that it is no fun to read a story and imagine it with out the feeling of changing it to be there own.

I love working with people to develope the stories of their manga. I tgry to go out of my way to help people with my abilities in plot and story.

I know alot of editors that ruin storylines just for the pretty picture, and those that are to controling over the artist not allowing them to express them selves enough to motivate themselves. I personally thinks it comes down to pride and ego, when it comes to conflicts between writers and artist, and if they can put it aside enough to think of the work first over the ideals of if they are put in a good light or not.

Siegen

Some thoughts on the matter.

[fuurin]

Originally Posted by Siegen

I personally thinks it comes down to pride and ego, when it comes to conflicts between writers and artist, and if they can put it aside enough to think of the work first over the ideals of if they are put in a good light or not.

I think that's a very good approach on the issue. The main reason why an artist and a writer collaborate should be to produce higher quality work for other's enjoyment. If both just keep that goal in mind who gets the most credit shouldn't matter.
However, the reality seems more complex than that. As soon as you get to the commercial side of things it get's complicated.

One thing in the article that really gave me a thinker was the part about artists and writers having similar goals in order to work together. I hadn't even thought that far, but if one wants to go commercial and another just wants a personal project I can see a clash. It definately needs to be made clear at the beginning of the collab what kind of an outcome there will be from the project.

Since art is more easily recognized that writing, I think artists who work and produce with a writer should take some responsibility in making people aware that they're not alone on the project.
If people compliment their work and make it sound like they're the sole provider of the work they should make corrections. I know it's not much but in the long run I think it does make a difference.

[Siegen]

I really think the quality of manga story wise has gone down over the last ten or so years. Even though the art side has stayed the same or increased, because of programs and aids that help do things faster and more detailed. The story side has taken quite a few hits, and one of the reasons is the fact that many more artists are able to do things alone rather then have the split the work load with a writer. The connivance of the art tool programs have created a double edged sword. It gives artist the free movement to create art faster, but it has given a air of independence to the artist to think that working with a writer is the exception rather then it being the rule.

I know many will take offense saying that the artist doing it alone is there right, and it should be the way things work. I believe that is because it is the way people think now, and not because it is the right way. I really believe writers should look for artist that they can motivate and give a new type of creativity too, and artist should look for writers to give them new avenues of how to express there talent.

I like to help artist with stories, and I don't believe I am to difficult to work with. The problem I run in to the most is not a conflict of personalities, but a conflict of belief that I am needed. Many decide not to take a suggestion, because they believe it is comprising there art. I have seen writers act the same way, which causes them both to be inflexible. The answer to it is simple. The people haven't found the right partner to be with, and because of that things don't turn out well.

Anyway I am done causing problems with my opinion and views, but will stir the pot a little more as I leave. I look at different manga all the time, and I see a range of difference between artist quality. It have seen many iffy plot lines with great art, but what turns me off isn't the poor plot or storyline, but the opportunity wasted because they did not seek to make it the best quality possible. I am sure they worked incredibly hard on it and put forth alot of effort, but just like a writer seeks out a artist to tell there story. It seems that more often then not a artist refuses to seek out a writer to bring out the fullest of there art.

I know that many probably disagree, and there are extreme cases that causes conflict on both the writer and artist side. The truly sad thing is that we look at these extreme cases and use them as bookmarks for our arguements for or against. In the end, I believe they are just excuses to push across the current trend that spotlights independent genius rather then collaborative ingenuity. The only true victims of this are the readers, because they are losing out on the possibilities that are wasted by our arrogant ways.

Siegen

Add 6 cents to the tally..

[Buuu]

Originally Posted by Siegen

I really think the quality of manga story wise has gone down over the last ten or so years. Even though the art side has stayed the same or increased, because of programs and aids that help do things faster and more detailed.

Actually, I find that using software for everything is slower. I only use it for toning, and very occasional inking.

I really believe writers should look for artist that they can motivate and give a new type of creativity too, and artist should look for writers to give them new avenues of how to express there talent.

TBH, I find it kinda difficult to work with writers. Because I pretty much am one (used to write short stories before doing comics) I've got my own writing style already. This means often when I look at a script, I'll kinda be a bit nit-picky. I also kinda disagree that it requires a writer to expand the scope of the artist's work - I've written stuff ranging from fantasy to sci-fi, period drama to modern, horror to comedy... (Of course, I've not drawn it all yet. ) I try my best to write different types of stories.


Writers are not always a positive influence on comics. I've read quite a few that were, uh, mangled by the writing. Not to say all writers are bad though, just that a writer who can't write is no more use than an artist who can't write.

[wyldflowa]

Originally Posted by Cin

If there are artists out there who just cannot draw anything unless they’re the ones writing it, well... they're screwed for commissions aren’t they?

Yes sir, yes I am.

I personally just can't get my head around drawing something that's someone else's vision... I mean, if it's going from your own head to paper there's little chance you're going to get it wrong but if it's going from one person, to paper, to another person, to paper there's going to be some loss of the original idea. I dunno if this could be an improvement (the artist adding to the writer's story) or not (the artist missing the mark completely)... if you understand me. ^^; There needs to be a real closeness there so both people can get it right... Which makes the prospect of something like a script RSOM even more absurd to me - if they win then what? Their story gets drawn perhaps? But then like, will the writer and artist ever meet? Will they ever be able to share ideas and really collaborate? Rather than one just providing something for the other blindly... For that sort of partnership to work I believe there has to be a real connection between the two creators - art and writing are so closely knitted in manga that if there's distance between the two sides then it'll probably show in the finished product.

I think it's also hard to find interest in another person's story - if it's your own writing it's obviously going to be something you're really passionate about. I have huge respect for artists who can collaborate - bringing to life something that wasn't your idea originally is an amazing and underrated skill. I'll have to say I respect the artist far more.

I used to write on and off myself and can pretty much pull a story out of anywhere, I've got them falling out my ears - but drawing urgh, it's so hard! I can sit there for hours just trying to think how to approach a certain scene... then you gotta draw it. >_< Maybe I've got a weird view of it but writing to me is soooo relaxing, just typing away, getting ideas down fast and easy with no stress... Art is hard, time consuming, takes constant nitpicking, scrutinizing, hurts my eyes, back, neck, shoulders, hand, legs... (I should buy a new computer chair) XD

I don't think writers are a positive influence on comics either... or that they can expand an artist's talent... perhaps compliment it... but no one can improve an artist apart from themselves and goddam hard work...

[Sun Kitten]

What I enjoy with making comics is the telling of the story. I would describe myself first and foremost as a storyteller, not an artist. I have worked with other people writing for me, and that was fine, and I have written for someone else, and that was fine, but nothing is going to compare to bringing my story to life myself. So no matter how many times I work with someone, I will always make time for my own projects, because nothing else is as important to me.

Personally, I think I am a much better writer than artist anyway Maybe I should just write books instead. There are more opportunities that way anyway

[Siegen]

I understand that some artist are writers too, but I am not saying that artist should just seek out writers, but other artist too. If you limit your self to believing that only you can create a story or art piece. I believe you are doing just that.. limiting your ability by missing out on what others can contribute. I know everybody wants to have the piece or art labeled as theres, but I guess I am really wierd. I don't care about being a shining star in the sky, but one of a greater constilation.

It is hard sometimes to take help from people, because many people believe the other person has a altier motive. Sometimes that is true, but that is not always the case. It is something very hard to explain because I personally can't explain it all the time to my self.

It is something that you have to achieve by your self, and in this self interest world we are in. I guess we have it stacked against us.

I don't want to be the North Star, because it always seems so lonely. I want to be one among a group that I can call my family.

Siegen