[Gen. Skirmish]

bump!

it seems wapanese really cannot be stopped.

And younger artist are even saying it feels werid to read Manga the right to left.

the other day when i saw a reprinted version of video girl ai GN.

for some stupid reason. it has been flipped back to the orignial japanese standard.

even tho my original first edition it was flipped to western standards.


Sight.. so wapanese is becoming a industry standard now.....

or just maybe TP are really to blame for this.

[rik]

Originally Posted by Col. Skirmish

bump!

it seems wapanese really cannot be stopped.

And younger artist are even saying it feels werid to read Manga the right to left.

the other day when i saw a reprinted version of video girl ai GN.

for some stupid reason. it has been flipped back to the orignial japanese standard.

even tho my original first edition it was flipped to western standards.


Sight.. so wapanese is becoming a industry standard now.....

or just maybe TP are really to blame for this.

In my opinion, I'd rather read manga/comics in their original directional orientation than flipped, it's not important which was it was, just I'd like it with as few fuck-arounds as possible. Leaving art how it was drawn is hardly being wapanese. You rather everything we get be totally bastardised to some big-wigs impression of marketable for western audiences? Seen any day time cartoons recently that used to be anime? Scripts completely rewritten, characters changed beyond recognition, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

[Laura]

...printing right-to-left doesn't have anything to do with reducing the cost of graphic novels from around £13.99 to a fiver from Amazon at all, does it?

[dogtopus]

Originally Posted by Col. Skirmish

even tho my original first edition it was flipped to western standards.


Sight.. so wapanese is becoming a industry standard now.....

or just maybe TP are really to blame for this.

AARGH! I realise I'm late here, but that's the thing that REALLY gets me frustrated. The way I see it, when artwork is flipped you see it without preconceptions, which is why you see all the mistakes. So any mistakes revealed in the flipping are going to be seen by everyone that looks at it apart from you anyway. It doesn't make artwork worse! Retraining my brain to read the other way & double back on itself is much more of a bitch. Bastards! AAAAAAARGH!!! The new Battle Angel Alita trades are re-flipped (and smaller!) too. AARGHHHH!!

..printing right-to-left doesn't have anything to do with reducing the cost of graphic novels from around £13.99 to a fiver from Amazon at all, does it?

...

<_<

All my anger's turned to... confusion? Shame? Gratitude? XD Gah! I don't know whether to hate them or hug them. Maybe if I hug them, but really hard...

Aww, who am I kidding? All I wanna do is give them ice cream XD

[Laura]

Originally Posted by dogtopus

Gah! I don't know whether to hate them or hug them. Maybe if I hug them, but really hard...

Hahaa!

"Awwww I wuv you sooooo much, Viz, for translating my fave manga - even when, halfway through the series, you decide upon CHANGING the DESIGN and SIZE and NOT FLIPPING IT ANY MORE..."

*Chokes publisher to death*

[Cin]

You do realize why is was flipped in the first place right? to Make it marketable.

Why would they flip it back? to make it Marketable. I honestly don't think Wapanese factored into it as much as some graph made in excel which was displayed in a boardroom somewhere.

To be honest I don't care enough which way it reads so long as I get a decent story and I wouldn't blame TP for the sins of Wapanese flipping. Bloomsbury were doing back in 1996, it's just TP made it marketable. Only real grip is like Luara says when they change it mid series... which is just annoying.

[ice climber]

This is an interesting subject. Some people do try too hard to be 'manga'. When I name a character it's usually the firs name that comes in to my head, the rest of the time their named after someone or another character (I have a android character called Elenor named after a char in PSO). I really only have one chracter with a Japanese name but that's because her parents moved to London when she was five, its also how she meets her best friend whom happens to be the protagonist).

on the honnourifics thing, Del Ray are the only compan y I've seen that keep them in. It's not that big a deal to me (although there are other thing like the fact they can't deside to use 'Japan' or 'Nippon' in Tsubasa).

[ice climber]

Originally Posted by Laura

Hahaa!

"Awwww I wuv you sooooo much, Viz, for translating my fave manga - even when, halfway through the series, you decide upon CHANGING the DESIGN and SIZE and NOT FLIPPING IT ANY MORE..."

*Chokes publisher to death*

You know you can get nonflipped versons of the early chapters now.

[PaulB]

There's posts on this thread where the very air is thick with the sound of denial (!), but Rik's summed it up nicely.

I still cannot believe there's people who welcome reversed and westernized manga. You know, you could go the whole hog and put the manga back on the shelf and go and buy the latest offerings from DC or Marvel or one of the Western indies. Never again would you have to worry about which way to read a title or be disturbed by words like "kotatsu".

Even with translations the story is being diminished. For instance, the use of honorifics will change the mood of a scene or define the relationship between 2 characters.

I'm aghast at the idea that publishers are merely not flipping titles based on cost alone. I really don't think that's the case and that they do care about the titles they're licensing and releasing (at least I hope so).

[Buuu]

They translate manga into English! Shocking! No language could ever be as superior as Japanese! Blah blah.

Maintaining the subtlety of language is up to a decent quality rewriter. Not ham-fistedly shoving honourifics down the throats of people who don't understand them. If the artist's story relies on honourifics or other obscure nuances, then their story is probably a bit rubbish and I don't want to read it anyway.

[PaulB]

Originally Posted by Buuu

They translate manga into English! Shocking! No language could ever be as superior as Japanese! Blah blah.

Woah there - No one is claiming one language is superior to another.

Originally Posted by Buuu

Maintaining the subtlety of language is up to a decent quality rewriter. Not ham-fistedly shoving honourifics down the throats of people who don't understand them. If the artist's story relies on honourifics or other obscure nuances, then their story is probably a bit rubbish and I don't want to read it anyway.

I can't recall any manga I've read recently where anything was "shoved" down my throat. Maybe I'm reading the wrong ones.

Pretty much every manga that I have read has covered some Japanese reference at some point, be it honorifics or some aspect of Japanese culture (possibly because they're from Japan). I can't actually recall any title being so stripped bare of cultural references that a casual reader would be unable to tell whether the title was produced in Japan or anywhere else which seems to be your goal here - forgetting also that manga has it's own in-built symbols, themes and non-verbal language. That's what defines these things as "manga".

Both xxxHOLiC and Negima are culprits for using Japanese cultural references (the scamps), but I find them great entertainment and wouldn't quite write them off as "rubbish" - but then choice is a wonderful thing.

[Buuu]

Originally Posted by PaulB

I can't actually recall any title being so stripped bare of cultural references that a casual reader would be unable to tell whether the title was produced in Japan or anywhere else which seems to be your goal here - forgetting also that manga has it's own in-built symbols, themes and non-verbal language. That's what defines these things as "manga".

Uh, no. The point is that people should be able to enjoy a title without knowing the obscure cultural references. Manga is mass entertainment after all, and it would be a shame to keep it the domain of cliquey elite on the internet. If you like reading manga because it is Japanese, then you are reading it for the wrong reason.

BTW! I don't think I'd forget the visual grammar of manga, since I've written about it in books three times! I know what makes manga what it is, and it isn't putting a kotatsu in every tiny 6 tatami room.

[dogtopus]

I still cannot believe there's people who welcome reversed and westernized manga. You know, you could go the whole hog and put the manga back on the shelf and go and buy the latest offerings from DC or Marvel or one of the Western indies.

Manga is comics in my eyes. I read some marvel, dc but mainly indie titles and manga, and it does honk me off to have to change reading direction, it always disrupts my enjoyment.
Talking about the story diminishing, how much does it diminish while I'm hunting for the next bubble? English reads left to right, so comics in english should be read left to right. Amongst other things, when you read a speech bubble you finish the sentence on the right hand side of it, but if the next bubble in the sequence is on the left you have to look over the bubble you've just read. If it was ordered left to right your eyes would just flow from one to the other like they're supposed to. I'm of the view that if you want to read it as intended, then read it in japanese. If it's being translated then like you said, there's a lot of changes being made, so why not make it easier to read as well? Why screw with the conventions of the language you're translating it to?

I can live with it, 'cos I can get into the groove eventually and it's all cool so long as I don't read a book or comic before tackling manga (or vice versa!). If it keeps costs down then it's all good too; I'd rather wrestle with my conventions than not be able to afford a good book. But arguing that it's better because it's more authentic or because it's prettier doesn't make any sense to me at all.

But yeah, I welcome flipped manga. :D XD

[Majutsushi]

I like reading right-left...for some reason I find it much easier reading manga that way??.....Guess its because i've always read manga that way. I think i have 2 manga books that are flipped to Western style and i never really felt comfortable!.....I believe some Wapanese is good but there is a limit to that much wapanese one can take!

Also todo with the above input I'm reading Naruto but in original Japanese....So its all good! I mean ive been into manga fora long time now and ive never read it flipped, i feel more comfortable reading right to left....and i dont have a problem with them keeping japanese honorifics and sound effects! It helps me learn since im studying japanese....But i never use any thing like that in my own manga!

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by Buuu

BTW! I don't think I'd forget the visual grammar of manga, since I've written about it in books three times! I know what makes manga what it is, and it isn't putting a kotatsu in every tiny 6 tatami room.

Well, if the artist happens to have drawn a kotatsu I don't see what you can do about it. People aren't going to run for the hills screaming just because they see cartoon characters sleeping on the floor, or having rice for breakfast - the fact that people do things differently in asia is common knowledge, and I honestly don't think many things you see in the average manga are going to be too much of a culture shock.

Personally, I don't much care about wapanese or whatever in foreign manga - I don't see how copying speech pattern, or panel order, or setting your manga in japan is any different from drawing big eyes and pointy hair like those crazy japanese guys do. We're borrowing a foreign art style here, I imagine some cultural bleed is inevitable. Well, at least until the definitive british 'manga' is established and we begin to properly localise our comics.

[anna louise]

Originally Posted by Buuu

Uh, no. The point is that people should be able to enjoy a title without knowing the obscure cultural references. Manga is mass entertainment after all, and it would be a shame to keep it the domain of cliquey elite on the internet. If you like reading manga because it is Japanese, then you are reading it for the wrong reason.

For many titles that is true, but not for all of them. For instance, as mentioned, xxxHolic is heavily based on Japanese mythology and culture, the glossary for each volume is very long. If you took out, or westernized those references, it would be pretty crap. The series derives it's charm from those cultural references and it's distinct, rather Japanese story-telling as well with it's turn of events.

I agree with Diesel, you can't completely separate manga from it's Japanese associations, I would also think that many manga fans enjoy reading and learning the cultural aspects that often crop up in manga. And the more original the manga seems to be the happier fans are (go on enough forums and you'll see pretty much everyone loves Del Ray's translations ^^;; )

[Subi]

Originally Posted by anna louise

And the more original the manga seems to be the happier fans are (go on enough forums and you'll see pretty much everyone loves Del Ray's translations ^^;; )

What, including the cock-ups they made with Negima?

[anna louise]

Originally Posted by Subi

What, including the cock-ups they made with Negima?

Despite any mess-ups they may have made (Tokyopop and Viz are much worse offenders, and it was their first title, and all the stink caused about their supposed censorship of Negima artwork wasn't true anyway) Most people prefer their use of glossaries and keeping the honorifics, it just seems a little unlikely that many manga fans are solely interested in the art and not the Japanese cultural side behind it as well.

[Dock]

Originally Posted by Diesel

Well, if the artist happens to have drawn a kotatsu I don't see what you can do about it.

Simple, you do a translation that doesn't throw the word 'Kotatsu' around in gay abandon. Sure, there are plenty of Japanese words which have made it into the western conciousness, but they don't go much further than Ninja, Sensei and Sushi.

I realise that a lot of people here obviously read manga out of interest in Japan and geekiness about the culture, but not every story needs to have this sort of thing (such as the word 'kotatsu') shoved down the audience's throat.

Keep culture where it's necessary, but what is gained for the majority readership by keeping frivolous Japanese terms within the text?

[Subi]

Originally Posted by anna louise

Despite any mess-ups they may have made (Tokyopop and Viz are much worse offenders, and it was their first title, and all the stink caused about their supposed censorship of Negima artwork wasn't true anyway) Most people prefer their use of glossaries and keeping the honorifics, it just seems a little unlikely that many manga fans are solely interested in the art and not the Japanese cultural side behind it as well.

Er, I was joking.

Besides, I know the censorship was dropped - I was talking about the mistranslations in the first couple of volumes "Southern" instead of "Thousand", "Rakuso" instead of "Karakuri", etc...

For instance, I completely refuse to read Tenjo Tenghe because of the butcher job CMX made of it, no matter how much I actually want to.

Originally Posted by Dock

Keep culture where it's necessary, but what is gained for the majority readership by keeping frivolous Japanese terms within the text?

Exactly. I always point out that I'm a manga fan, not a japan fan. Being the latter is like saying any foreign reader of 2000AD would also be completely obssessed with the entirety of UK culture!

Actually, I read a lot of European comics as well. There's one guy I particulalrly like, and he's Serbian!