[Gen. Skirmish]

one thing above all else that i think will be the cause of death for u.k original manga.

Is the amount of WAPANESE.

im seeing from the new artist. who unlike people of my generation that grew up on the Properly translated stuff of dark horse,elipse,
and early viz.

are growing up tokyo unfliped and untranslated sound effect.


what is Wapanese [google it and you be suprised at the results]


I've said this before at various different thread but now im gonna say it again.


many of us have indeed been influence quite alot by the japanese style, and many even be sturdy it [half hearted or not]


but for the life of me.

I do not see a SINGLE GOOD reason WHY Original manga to be


1.design to be read right to left

2.Have japanese sound effects

3.Have a japanese title, when a english one is just more logical

4.Have characters with japanese names [which i always thought was lazy]

5.Make said character throw in words like CHAN, SAMA. and of course BAKA!

6.setting comics in japan.. bearing in mind the fact you mind NEVER been there!


thoughts please

[Ness]

Don't you mean right to left??

Well.. it's up to people themselves. If that's what they want to do, go them. Though I agree it's not necessary to be as Japanese like as possible to get across a story etc etc.

[Gen. Skirmish]

Originally Posted by Ness

Don't you mean right to left??

Well.. it's up to people themselves. If that's what they want to do, go them. Though I agree it's not necessary to be as Japanese like as possible to get across a story etc etc.

ah thanks vanessa!.. it changed

[Dock]

I agree, it's not a good thing. Some things bother me more than others, and people generally grow out of it. I still one a title set in Japan, but I've grown out of it since I wrote it.

I think I find the right-to-left thing the most obnoxious, especially when they themselves screw up the panel order. For example, I've seen artists put the panels in the right order, but then put the bubbles in left-to-right order. Also, it creates an unnecessary 'knot' in the reading of the book. You need vertical text really to make right to left work well, just as the Japanese do. 'Unflopped' manga works okay because the text has such short line lengths, but it really shouldn't be used for English origin comics.

However, one counter argument - how many manga are set in America, when the artist probably has never been there? huh? It's a bit gimmicky, but if the artist wants to set it there, there's no huge harm, so long as they're careful and do their research.

[Frenchie]

Well, if people want to write and draw like that then it's completely their choice. I'd be a fool if I let my own slight prejudice towards (Disclaimer: The following is made up) London born and bred, John Smith's 'Watashi no Tomodachi desu' stop me picking up another Brit's Japanese tinted comic which may in fact, be the second coming in paper format. You can miss a hell of a lot with innate prejudices.

However, this is certainly something I would feel uncomfortable doing in my own work. I'm British, I speak English and splatters of French, German and Japanese but have never been to any of those countries and I holiday bi-yearly in Florida. Thus my stories that take place in the real world are confined to Britain, I write and draw left to right and in concise English with occasional Americanisms in dialogue that reflect our speech. I think that the pretensions of using too much Japanese influence can lead to identity issues in your work because on the storytelling level, you have to be true to what you know as most hypothetical instances ring false. Even in fantasy stories there are areas that must involve what you know.

Well, that is at least how I feel from experience from many a degree workshop...

[Buuu]

I may set one of my comics in Japan... But in such a way that no one would know. That is, it's futuristic so not recognisable, which makes it easier to research. And I wouldn't ram it down people's throats (I never mention the setting of my comics anyway.) The character has a Japanese name because he's named after a Japanese person. (He does actually look Japanese too.) The story really does work better in Japan anyway...

But then, I also have comic ideas which are set in Haiti and Antarctica respectively. And I've not been to either of those.

I'm thinking... I wonder how far one would get with a manga that reads right to left? AFAIK none of the Tokyopop western manga read that way, and it's always awkward with printers to explain that the pages are backwards. Personally I don't know if I could draw a manga right to left, as much of it as I read, I don't think I can draw that way as easily. (Maybe I'd have to draw left-to-right and flip it, hehehe)

[Sonia Leong]

Agree with most of your points Skirmish! Unless it is appropriate for the context of the comic, I don't see any reason why any of those things should randomly be that way.

Japanese names are appropriate for stories based in Japan, or for Japanese characters.

Stories based in Japan must make sense - there should be a good reason why, and should be well researched.

Although Japanese sound effects are much more versatile and more accurate at times, if you are writing in english, you should use an English equivalent. There are ways to do it!!

If you're writing in a language that reads left to right, draw a comic that reads left to right.

Japanese titles? Na-ah, only if your story is about a quintessentially Japanese subject or person.... And isn't really necessary.

Japanese honorifics - if your story has lots of Japanese characters in it, is based in Japan, and they are speaking Japanese to each other, then I understand why you'd use it. Easily avoidable though, and not necessary!

[Xan]

Originally Posted by Col. Skirmish

2.Have japanese sound effects

I have to disagree partly here, I would say that sometimes the English words dont make the right effect, like writing something like an explosion in enlish sound effects it sounds ridiculous or plain dumb, wheras Japanese sounds are more appropriate, but I do aggree, they should not be used as a replacement where english are fine, although it is also true to say that you shouldnt mix and match, if you use english on one page, it must be used all the way through, same with Japanese.

Well, thats my opinion.

[Gen. Skirmish]

okay okay point no 6

needs clarify.

well Gerenally im lucky that almost all my comics are set in totally made up places.

apart from a good knight dreams which was suppose to be set in swizterland. but i did make a grand deal about it.


im not against people setting comics anyway they haven't been..

Because more than likely i doubt any of the pro manga-ka [i mean artists!.. see thats wapanese!]

have ever set foot outside nippon.

But in context to the augument about balantent WAPANESE, I don't really See the point in Creating a comic. around the worship of the japanese culture!.

So setting the comic in japan Just Because it gives you an excuse to draw high schools girls in sailor uniforms, and Have them Yelling KAWAII! all day.


[in the words of harry enfield]

NOOOOOOOOOO!!


Of course setting a comic in japan with a good reason.. altho There VERY FEW is perfectly understandable

[voxie]

Wikipedia says:
Wapanese is a derogatory slang term used to describe a caucasian person with a great interest in Japan and Japanese culture. Derived from white and japanese, the term implies that the white person wishes he or she was japanese. It is most often used against manga and anime fans, sometimes called otaku.

Racial issues aside, I get the point. But... each artist to his/her own, dude.

I think many of us here have grown-up reading manga and gotten into drawing the manga-style as a result. As amateurs, some of us may have added baka and the -chans and -sans. But that's part of the learning process isn't it? You like something, you want to make your own, you're bound to copy some things, whatever helps your work feel more comfortable, and seem more "manga" - whether for yourself, or as fan service to the readers. As your art matures, you may drop a lot of these gimmicks, in hope of finding your own originality.

[Laura]

Wapanese... maybe can't be stopped, but can be slapped down.

I agree that in contect some things an artist should try and work them out of their manga-drawing system! Then not do them again

In my younger comicker days I have been guilty of doing some Japanese sound effects (for comedy panels), naming some characters using Japanese names (but they are Japanese), drawing a comic right-to-left (but it ws for a bilingual Japanese doujinshi). Am I forgiven?

I agree with Dock that the word obnoxious does describe western mangaka who do the whole right-to-left Japanese SFX thing to the whole. But I was an obnoxious manga child back then too.

To generate a great comic you don't need gimmicks to sell it. In fact doing this will put readers off. But heck, each to their own. Just that many sales may not be made, etc.

Do you all think this should apply to comics as a whole, just printed ones or webcomics?

[Subi]

I prefer Japanese names to Western ones, I prefer the way they sound. Nothing to do with wanting to be Japaneser-than-thou or anything, just a preference!

And Kuri's full title "Binkan Shounen Kurodzu Kuri" is partly meant to be a piss-take of the gibberish English you often get as a pre- or sub-title to anime title. Like Superdimensional Fortress Macross. They do it in English, so we do it in Japanese.

[Azure]

For someone who advocates ‘Creative Freedom’ I think you’re being ridiculous! An artist has the right to use what they want. Do you want to go tell the Japanese that they can’t use English, and that the western influence ( and words) in some manga is wrong?

[Scorpio]

You've really hit a nerve there!!! Wapanese is my greatest pet peeve! (Actually I've just discovered that there's a term for this...athough meant to be derogatory, it's probably on par with the term "wigga"). I don't think it's a direct blow at "creative freedom" since wapanese just implies exploiting bad manga clichees. As a designer I can insist on having my creative freedom and use Comic Sans all over the place...but I probably won't get very far with my career !

1.design to be read right to left
The only exception I find acceptable is a translation of an original japanese manga. Since the artist drew it in right-to-left it would be unfair to flip their work (I'd certainly hate having all of my pages flipped...mistake disaster zone :P!!) Otherwise since english is read left-right, having the pictures in the other direction is just pretentious bullsh*t...disrupts the flow of the entire manga. I applaud Tokyopop for justifying that in their rules. So many manga contests encourage wapanesing by insisting on right-to-left (or even worse, setting themes such as "High School Drama").

2.Have japanese sound effects
Haven't actually encountered any...though if japanese sound effects are those jagged, distorted romanji characters then I probably didn't even register them as sound effects...thought they were just there to make the picture look prettier :P.

3.Have a japanese title, when a english one is just more logical
Japanese titles do irritate me slightly...it's balanced on the fine line of having a nice-sounding title (I like japanese words! ^_^) and detracting from the overall quality since no-one understands it! I've also always felt a slight intrinsic snobbery in japanese titles...along the lines of "if you're not hardcore otaku enough to understand this then you shouldn't be reading this manga at all!". Then again, how many japanese mangas are there with obscure english titles ? Maybe it's just the lure of having something exotic (in my younger, darker days I once chose a french title )

4.Have characters with japanese names [which i always thought was lazy]
Not so much lazy, just obnoxious. If anything it takes more effort to google japanese names than to pick a few english ones out of the air from the couple of hundred people that you know already. And japanese names will inevitably lead to a japanese setting...which inevitably leads to bad clichees, copycat themes, wannabe characters and a manga in the bin.

5.Make said character throw in words like CHAN, SAMA. and of course BAKA!
Again, having them say japanese things often means that the whole thing is set in a wapanesed Japan...see above.

6.setting comics in japan.. bearing in mind the fact you mind NEVER been there!
Obviously everyone has the freedom to choose where to set their comic. But one factor of being an artist is to convey a story to your reader in a genuine, heartfelt manner. And I just find it hard to imagine how it's possible convey an authentically researched setting when you've never lived in (or worse never been to) that country.

Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that people with asian (or japanese) heritage are allowed to "get away" with a bit of wapanese (chinese person speaking here ). If they didn't grow up in their home country, they're no more authentic than their white/black/hispanic friends. Sure, knowing the language and bits of custom is a slight advantage, but on the whole I'm sure that every foreign born child can identify stronger with the culture that they grew up in (English, German whatever) than the one of their ethnicity.

[bex]

hhmmm..I have mixed oppinions about this..
Ive only ever done one of these points myself (using Japanese names, although even I dont really use them unless the character is from Japan now...) but generally I like to keep things in English format because I guess I am doing a british comic, and i like to just keep my story and art as original as it can possibly be (although Ive only just started to do this, in my older comics done when I was 13 my stuff wasnt so original..^^; )..

On the other hand, I started drawing manga because I was inspired and influenced by it, so I can understand that people might do these things in their comics because they are inspired by the original japanese manga, and so want to use it in their comics! In this way I think its ok to do all these things to your comic, although personally I dont generally do it myself!
(also I agree with Subi that japanese names and other forein names to me are far more interesting then english names, which is another reason why some points of wapanese arent so bad! ^^; )

[Trowa]

1.design to be read right to left
Dont have a problem with this, whoever wants to do it can do it

2.Have japanese sound effects
When its small sound effects like footsteps i can understand why it would be better in english. But when it come to the big effects i prefer them left as they are, they create another layer on the pages. (edit: removed tsubasa example)
Or dont you like the fact that people who arent japanese use them, sorry but if i took time and effort to learn what the effects in hirigana, katakana and kanji are i would consider using them, if anything they look totally different and its another choice to be made by a artist.

3.Have a japanese title, when a english one is just more logical
Define logical for each person
A japanese word that gets used could mean something to the artist, of course it also gets done just cos it sounds cooler, but its different for each person

4.Have characters with japanese names
Its their choice. but once again it has two sides, those who ARE lazy and those who use certain name for certain reasons.

5.Make said character throw in words like CHAN, SAMA. and of course BAKA
Now this i dont agree with, it can work, but england generally have a different view on honorifics.

6.setting comics in japan.. bearing in mind the fact you mind NEVER been there
Nothings more fun than the imagination.
It can be nice, also respecting, to do research on a area or country. But sometimes to see things that arent or shouldnt be in a location adds charm and originality, though it can backfire and be offensive.

There are a minimum of two sides to everything.

[anna louise]

lol, I understood that Wapanese was where English words and Japanese words were all garbled up (like anime fans going 'That's so Kawaiiii!') Which always made me laugh because the Japanese are the biggest abusers of Wapanese ever. Lots and lots of Japanese manga have English titles too, and characters with English names, and characters that live abroad.

And I just find it hard to imagine how it's possible convey an authentically researched setting when you've never lived in (or worse never been to) that country.

Sorry, I have to totally 100% disagree with you there. There are so many books I could list off in the hundreds where the author has never set foot in the country or time, and yet can manage to realistically convey the setting better than those who perhaps lived in that place or time. It's not about whether you have been there, it's about your ability to convey atmosphere and culture. (This was like the trick question in my WWI English Lit paper, never say the account/text is more realistic because the person was there at the time.)

[rik]

Have to agree on most parts. Of course there are many legitimate exceptions for certain series, stories and artists, but I certainly agree with the general observation. I'm sure most here have fallen foul of one of your rules once or twice at some point. I know when I was 12 I scripted a cringe worthy epic set in 'hyper tokyo' (I wish I was joking) with Japanese-sounding names that could have meant anything or nothing. Besides that embarassment many people you disapprove of actually have some kind of clue and know what they're doing which I think is worth a moments thought.

[ebichu64]

Sorry, I wanted to reply to this last night but didn't get the time, and I don't have much time now either.

I googled this like you suggested and followed this link instead. Funny stuff, especially entry number 40.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wapanese

I'm reminded of something I heard read out on Radio 1 years ago, "What's the difference between Trekkers and Trekkies" which had things like "Trekkers run at their heroes shouting 'Bill' and 'Len', Trekkies shout 'Kirk' and 'Spock' " and the real killer "Trekkers wonder what sex in Zero G would be like, Trekkies wonder what sex would be like".

I've met a few Japan-obsessed people, usually at conventions, and I find myself avoiding them.
I confess that I am interested in lots of Japanese things; mostly clothes and toys, art and trinkets because they're pretty, and the music I listen is so upbeat and happy it's probably saved my life - at least where work is concerned! But I don't think everything Japansese is best, just like I don't like every anime I watch or manga I read.

Yes, okay, I set Kuri in Japan (actually, that makes it harder as I have to research the place and be careful not to get things too wrong!) and EEHR has a haiku as it's intro, but does anyone really take those seriously?

[Gen. Skirmish]

Originally Posted by Laura

Wapanese... maybe can't be stopped, but can be slapped down.
In my younger comicker days I have been guilty of doing some Japanese sound effects (for comedy panels), naming some characters using Japanese names (but they are Japanese), drawing a comic right-to-left (but it ws for a bilingual Japanese doujinshi). Am I forgiven? ?

well of course thats a very valid reason. if you intend to sell to a country which has a different system, it seem logical, however when selling to a english speaking audences... NO

Originally Posted by Laura

Do you all think this should apply to comics as a whole, just printed ones or webcomics?

Well i dug my own grave here.. not the first time.

lets bear in mind a few a things.

real translated manga of course has a very good reason to be sometimes left unflipped [if the artist really insists]. altho am of the opinion that it really not require that much of effort flipping things and doing VERY slight alterations.


I already clarified my position on settings. of course if you had japanese characters, then of course it automatically led to setting, honourifcs, and language.

My augument however is there really a good reason to throw in japanese characters-

like perchance that the story Has a plot that revolts around japan etc etc.


Or maybe no, because i read lots of manga X i gotta create comic Y and show my wapaneseness to the world?...

which anybody can tell you, ish't professional.

which pretty much is the impression im getting at the moment.


Now on the subject of creative freedom. IM not against people doing what ever they want.

However Im expressing a view which i very much feel needs to be expressed. and action needs to be taken now!


Because as stated in another thread, theres is ALOT of ignorantion about manga and anime.

And What are we doing to relieve the actual situtation?

Nothing or very little at best.

i see some of your titles being what you advocates Original. however there are some which of course fall fowl of what am talking about.


Lets face it, there is alot we can do to the change the stituation, we can start by thinking about.


1.Do we want to create a new readership from people who have never read manga.

2.Or do we want to continute treating manga as an excluise club. which requires that WE OUGHT TO KNOW what baka, nani, and kawaii means?


if we look at the american comic industry we can see the future already.

No matter how hard they tryed the lyric clad super heroes images stuck. as a result the average comic reader in american is now 30!.

Of course manga ish't like that now. because ironically it is mainly made up of alot of new blood. However if are little industry is to grow and expand.

we need to show demostrate there is more to manga
than high school, pokemon, and hentai!

and in our case WE HAVE REALLY NO EXCUSE whatsoever because we ought to know better.


Of course I am guilty very much of what i prench. I can forgive people for doing once. however it must stop.